Overwhelming Frustration

This is kind of a tough topic, but I think one that needs to be addressed. I find it absolutely maddening that President Obama will likely be re-elected because of the (approximately) 40% of this country's folks that pay no income tax. Let's think about that for a second. The people that don't pay for this guy's salary, or contribute to this country's defense, roads, or other general needed infrastructures, will ultimately put him back in office. I'm not sure if it's me, but this seems almost like bribery.

The premise here is that we need to raise the bar in this country. I am fully in favor of making it mandatory that you comply with each of the following or no longer be allowed to vote, no exceptions (these are all my own ideas, btw):

1) You must be able to read and write in English, at least at an 8th grade level.
2) If you have been on welfare or federal assistance of any kind more than twice in the last 10 years or for a period that exceeds 3 total years during that time, and still are, you lose your voting privilege. It will be reinstated when you stop being a scumbag.
3) Self-imposed stupidity like obesity, anxiety and depression will no longer be viewed as a malady, and those that have been milking the system for years will lose their voting privilege unless they return to the workforce immediately. Those with actual clinical depression, like Andrea Yates or a member's brother on this very forum, will receive the best care possible, as these people truly need assistance. But the gaggle of copycats will be treated swiftly and thrown into the real world. Shameful motherfuckers.
4) 5 or more arrests of a violent nature will see you kiss your voting rights goodbye. Assaulting a police officer on more than one occasion will do the same, as will more than 2 drug possession arrests. Selling drugs? One strike, asshole. You're done. White collar crimes like Ponzi schemes or any other malicious greed that looks to alter lives for the worse will also see your voting privilege immediately, and permanently, revoked.

Any other suggestions ... or do you just think I'm fucking crazy?

I normally don't agree with half or more of your political/biblical views, but I actually agree with your entire post! I would add a couple of other items though...

1. If you can't afford food and draw food stamps, you should have to take and pass random drug tests. If you can pay for drugs, cigarettes or alcohol, you don't need my money for food!

2. You have to have an I.D. to buy alcohol, cigarettes, drive, fish, buy a gun, etc... yet you don't need one to vote? Wrong fucking answer! Democrats have always called republicans racist for trying to push the idea. That's because a HUGE chunk of their votes are cast by illegal voters. This is bullshit, and needs to stop!

I fully agree with everything except I'd probably change "arrests" to "convictions" in number 4.

Food stamps should be used only to buy food and drink. No need to regulate the healthiness or lack thereof of what they buy, but absolutely no cigarettes, dip, booze etc.

Finally, where did you get that 40% of voters do not pay tax figure? The figures I've seen are actually closer to 55%. Whichever it is, it's a very bad thing that conditions are that way.

Like you said in another post, close the loopholes, impose a fair tax on people, and let the rest sort itself out. People that do not pay any taxes at all should not have a say in voting for a candidate who wants to raise my marginal and effective tax rates, period.

Looks as though you were a lot closer than I was, Matt:

This year’s Index of Dependence on Government presented startling findings about the sharp increase of Americans who rely on the federal government for housing, food, income, student aid or other assistance. (See last week’s chart.)

Another eye-popping number was the percentage of Americans who don’t pay income taxes, which now accounts for nearly half of the U.S. population. Meanwhile, most of that population receives generous federal benefits.

“One of the most worrying trends in the Index is the coinciding growth in the non-taxpaying public,” wrote Heritage authors Bill Beach and Patrick Tyrrell. “The percentage of people who do not pay federal income taxes, and who are not claimed as dependents by someone who does pay them, jumped from 14.8 percent in 1984 to 49.5 percent in 2009.”

That means 151.7 million Americans paid nothing in 2009. By comparison, 34.8 million tax filers paid no taxes in 1984.

The rapid growth of Americans who don’t pay income taxes is particularly alarming for the fate of the American form of government, Beach and Tyrrell warned. Coupled with higher spending on government programs, it is already proving to be a major fiscal challenge.

“This trend should concern everyone who supports America’s republican form of government,” Beach and Tyrrell wrote. “If the citizens’ representatives are elected by an increasing percentage of voters who pay no income tax, how long will it be before these representatives respond more to demands for yet more entitlements and subsidies from non-payers than to the pleas of taxpayers to exercise greater spending prudence?”

That really makes me sick to my stomach.

Saint John wrote:This is kind of a tough topic, but I think one that needs to be addressed. I find it absolutely maddening that President Obama will likely be re-elected because of the (approximately) 40% of this country's folks that pay no income tax. Let's think about that for a second. The people that don't pay for this guy's salary, or contribute to this country's defense, roads, or other general needed infrastructures, will ultimately put him back in office. I'm not sure if it's me, but this seems almost like bribery.

The premise here is that we need to raise the bar in this country. I am fully in favor of making it mandatory that you comply with each of the following or no longer be allowed to vote, no exceptions (these are all my own ideas, btw):

1) You must be able to read and write in English, at least at an 8th grade level.
2) If you have been on welfare or federal assistance of any kind more than twice in the last 10 years or for a period that exceeds 3 total years during that time, and still are, you lose your voting privilege. It will be reinstated when you stop being a scumbag.
3) Self-imposed stupidity like obesity, anxiety and depression will no longer be viewed as a malady, and those that have been milking the system for years will lose their voting privilege unless they return to the workforce immediately. Those with actual clinical depression, like Andrea Yates or a member's brother on this very forum, will receive the best care possible, as these people truly need assistance. But the gaggle of copycats will be treated swiftly and thrown into the real world. Shameful motherfuckers.
4) 5 or more arrests of a violent nature will see you kiss your voting rights goodbye. Assaulting a police officer on more than one occasion will do the same, as will more than 2 drug possession arrests. Selling drugs? One strike, asshole. You're done. White collar crimes like Ponzi schemes or any other malicious greed that looks to alter lives for the worse will also see your voting privilege immediately, and permanently, revoked.

Any other suggestions ... or do you just think I'm fucking crazy?

Are you saying that anyone with these issues should be denied? or just the ones that are not holding down jobs because of the said affliction above ,because that would probably be half our population if not more


If that 50% number is accurate....ugh! , i have a newfound respect for anyone and everyone who pays taxes ...WTF!

Ehwmatt wrote:That really makes me sick to my stomach.

I absolutely second that!

I'd replace the current tax system with the Fair Tax system. All these illegal fuckers that live here for free while using our hospitals, education system, etc for free??? This is the solution! Think of how much revenue would be generated nation-wide with all of these illegal fuckers paying their fair share!! A straight across the board 30% tax on purchases across the board. No IRS, no more Tax attorney's, etc...

It's the best tax proposal I've ever heard.

yulog wrote:
Are you saying that anyone with these issues should be denied? or just the ones that are not holding down jobs because of the said affliction above ,because that would probably be half our population if not more

Anyone receiving a check from the government because they're fat, worried or sad shouldn't be allowed to vote. Don't look at it as a penalty; it's more a conflict of interest. We simply can't continue to let politicians buy votes. And I know there's a small segment of clinically depressed people that aren't faking it and I truly feel for them. However, no system is perfect, and revoking votes from people on assistance seems like an exponentially better idea than what is currently occurring. The vast majority of these people are nothing more than manipulative thieves and this needs to stop.

Hey, fuck it, let's give checks to people that are happy. Oh yeah, we already do. They're called paychecks!

Saint John wrote:Self-imposed stupidity like obesity, anxiety and depression will no longer be viewed as a malady, and those that have been milking the system for years will lose their voting privilege unless they return to the workforce immediately.

You forgot pregnancy. I can't tell you how many times a week I get a request for a letter for women to give to the state saying they can't work because they are pregnant and they are being required to work (or look for work) in order to get state aid unless they have a doctors note. Then they get pissed off at me and storm out of my office when I explain to them that pregnancy is not a disablity and yes, they probably are uncomfortable but discomfort is not a medical emergency.

Saint John wrote:do you just think I'm fucking crazy?

Yes, I do, but that's actually beside the point...I still agree with you.

GI_Jim wrote:I'd replace the current tax system with the Fair Tax system. All these illegal fuckers that live here for free while using our hospitals, education system, etc for free??? This is the solution! Think of how much revenue would be generated nation-wide with all of these illegal fuckers paying their fair share!! A straight across the board 30% tax on purchases across the board. No IRS, no more Tax attorney's, etc...

It's the best tax proposal I've ever heard.

Hey moron, last I checked 30% of zero was ZERO ! The only people it would hurt is those who make money
We need tougher systems for welfare and unless you're disable , you shouldn't be able to get welfare more than 6 months.


And Saint John, you're more worried about who gets to vote those politicians in , I'm more worried about the damn politicians we vote in. They're all liars. They don't care about this country and the people. All they care about is to have a job that we pay for.

Behshad wrote:

GI_Jim wrote:I'd replace the current tax system with the Fair Tax system. All these illegal fuckers that live here for free while using our hospitals, education system, etc for free??? This is the solution! Think of how much revenue would be generated nation-wide with all of these illegal fuckers paying their fair share!! A straight across the board 30% tax on purchases across the board. No IRS, no more Tax attorney's, etc...

It's the best tax proposal I've ever heard.

Hey moron, last I checked 30% of zero was ZERO ! The only people it would hurt is those who make money
We need tougher systems for welfare and unless you're disable , you shouldn't be able to get welfare more than 6 months.


And Saint John, you're more worried about who gets to vote those politicians in , I'm more worried about the damn politicians we vote in. They're all liars. They don't care about this country and the people. All they care about is to have a job that we pay for.

Jim is talking about imposing a national sales tax, not a flat tax on income. It's a proposal economists have discussed alternatively with a flat tax on income.

Ehwmatt wrote:

Behshad wrote:

GI_Jim wrote:I'd replace the current tax system with the Fair Tax system. All these illegal fuckers that live here for free while using our hospitals, education system, etc for free??? This is the solution! Think of how much revenue would be generated nation-wide with all of these illegal fuckers paying their fair share!! A straight across the board 30% tax on purchases across the board. No IRS, no more Tax attorney's, etc...

It's the best tax proposal I've ever heard.

Hey moron, last I checked 30% of zero was ZERO ! The only people it would hurt is those who make money
We need tougher systems for welfare and unless you're disable , you shouldn't be able to get welfare more than 6 months.


And Saint John, you're more worried about who gets to vote those politicians in , I'm more worried about the damn politicians we vote in. They're all liars. They don't care about this country and the people. All they care about is to have a job that we pay for.

Jim is talking about imposing a national sales tax, not a flat tax on income. It's a proposal economists have discussed alternatively with a flat tax on income.

Which still doesnt make sense, cause the poor will pay that sales tax with the money that you and I contribute too and the rich will put a personal purchase in the business name and pay zero in sales tax.

Next !

Behshad wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:

Behshad wrote:

GI_Jim wrote:I'd replace the current tax system with the Fair Tax system. All these illegal fuckers that live here for free while using our hospitals, education system, etc for free??? This is the solution! Think of how much revenue would be generated nation-wide with all of these illegal fuckers paying their fair share!! A straight across the board 30% tax on purchases across the board. No IRS, no more Tax attorney's, etc...

It's the best tax proposal I've ever heard.

Hey moron, last I checked 30% of zero was ZERO ! The only people it would hurt is those who make money
We need tougher systems for welfare and unless you're disable , you shouldn't be able to get welfare more than 6 months.


And Saint John, you're more worried about who gets to vote those politicians in , I'm more worried about the damn politicians we vote in. They're all liars. They don't care about this country and the people. All they care about is to have a job that we pay for.

Jim is talking about imposing a national sales tax, not a flat tax on income. It's a proposal economists have discussed alternatively with a flat tax on income.

Which still doesnt make sense, cause the poor will pay that sales tax with the money that you and I contribute too

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, but I'll assume you're thinking our (exorbitant) tax dollars will still be going in kind to poor for entitlements etc. I'm not naive enough to believe that even a radical reform like a fair or flat tax would bring about a similar reform in welfare (i.e., by largely eliminating it). But under a fair uniform sales tax system, I can at least choose what proportion of my money I want going to these kinds of causes. If I'd rather sit on my money, invest it, etc, I can elect to do that instead of purchasing consumer goods and thereby incurring the tax. And the "poor" paying sales tax on purchases funded either with welfare or their own meager funds beats the hell out of most of them not paying any taxes at all (and indeed, getting some of MY tax dollars back in the form of things like the earned income tax credit). So at least when they buy that iPhone to bring to the soup kitchen, they'll be tossing 15% back in the pot for legitimate needs like roads, infrastructure etc.

Behshad wrote: and the rich will put a personal purchase in the business name and pay zero in sales tax.

Next !

This is just flat-out asinine. Contrary to what you read in Get Rich Quick books or Rich Dad Poor Dad, it's pretty much impossible and senseless to put a "personal purchase in the business name" and beat the tax man. At the end of the day, you will feel the tax bite regardless. Business entities are much more useful for the limited liability and organizational/governance structure they provide. They are not nearly the tax haven these silly books paint them to be.

Sure, there are certain ways you can buy phones and even cars using your business entity for tax reasons. But it's pretty tough to do. John Q. Rich Guy isn't going to be able to purchase a Ferrari through his business entity and use it to troll hot younger women in the local bar district. But for purposes of discussion, let's assume I am "rich," own and control a legal business entity (corporation, partnership, LLC etc), and want to buy something through the legal entity. If it's a corporation, I can elect to make my money through any or a combination of (a) salary paid to me by the corporation and (b) profit-sharing or dividends declared and paid to me by the corporation. On 1 hand, the corporation still has to pay the sales tax on the purchase of that car, phone etc, which reduces the assets from which the corporation can pay me a salary or share dividends/profits with me. On the other hand, in the end, the corporation is still paying that 15 or 30% sales tax on every purchase--what's the difference if the guy behind the legal entity pays it personally or not? At the end of the day, it's still his money and more important, that money is still going into the tax revenues to fund vital programs.

When it comes to LLCs and partnerships, the example is even more stark: typically, members/partners in those organizations make their money by taking a share of the profits. Again, the entity itself will have to pay that tax, which reduces the assets left over for the partners/members to take home as profits. So again, at the end of the day, their money is at stake regardless of who purchases the goods under a national sales tax system.

If anything, the national sales tax proposal lessens the incentive to play tax games with stuff like this.

Dude , get with the program, I dont need to read no rich people books. I see it with my own eyes. Its not ALL the wealthy but there are a good amount of business owners who use the business to their advantage to avoid paying sales tax. Not on everything. Not on groeceries or little purchaes here and there. When they make major purchases ( like a $72000 Navigator), they pay zero in sales tax by putting it in a business name that is tax exempt cause they have a license to lease. Simple as that.

And the "poor" paying sales tax on purchases funded either with welfare or their own meager funds beats the hell out of most of them not paying any taxes at all

Um, so you think the poor dont pay any sales tax right now ?


No matter how we tax the rich, the poor and the middle class :

A) There will be a welfare system that will always be highly used and abused mostly by those who dont even shouldnt be on it
B) The sales tax you want the poor to pay will not come out of their hard work (lack of) but OUR POCKETS!
C) There will be loopholes for many to get away with paying taxes
D) Middle class will always get screwed , cause we have the rich deciding for our economy and poor mooching off of us

I'm in favor of a moratorium on (almost) ALL entitlements, the lone exceptions being veterans and the physically handicapped. Mentally handicapped? You'll be admitted for a mandatory 6 month evaluation and diagnosed properly. Even your toughest ghetto urchin or trailer park druggie couldn't make it that long without a drink, drug or Jerry Springer marathon.

Popular to contrary belief, charity in this country is more than enough to help out those in need. There is virtually NO NEED for entitlements. It's just become a democratic way of organized extortion. These cocksuckers have basically unionized lazy people. I refer them as Union Local # 0. This country is in trouble and things have to get worse before they get better. And they need to get worse for those that do not contribute anything, first. The problem is not now, nor has it ever been, the rich. It's the generational decline of people wanting to work, and it's directly due to entitlements.

Make the flat tax 20%, encourage small tax breaks for corporations to send to not-for-profit charities and set up a constitutional amendment making it illegal to overspend. Draw up a plan to eliminate the debt over a 12-16 year period and immediately, and I mean fucking immediately, bring the high income earners out of that absurd 35% bracket (the one that Obama wants to go back to 39%). Imagine making 10 million dollars, paying 3.5 million in taxes and having some government-dependent asshole screaming that you don't pay enough in taxes ... while he paid ZERO. I'd punch that motherfucker right in his trap.

Behshad wrote:No matter how we tax the rich, the poor and the middle class

Stop right there. "Rich," "poor" and "middle class" are all silly labels, and we need to move past them. We need to tax everyone the same. Period. You have zero right to call someone that makes 3, 4 or even 5 BILLION per year "rich." That's not for you or the government to decide. Conversely, if someone makes $8 per year, they're not "poor." They simply are what they are, and should have their $8 taxed per dollar just like the guy making 5 billion. This will eliminate all of this class warfare and the assault on higher income earners.

Behshad wrote:A) There will be a welfare system that will always be highly used and abused mostly by those who dont even shouldnt be on it

And that's why you end it. Veterans and physically handicapped aside, of course.

Behshad wrote:B) The sales tax you want the poor to pay will not come out of their hard work (lack of) but OUR POCKETS!

The money has already come out of our pockets. If it's a "consumption" (Fair) tax, we'll simply get a good chunk of it back. Or do you really believe that I'm going to be standing behind one of these assholes when they buy a new phone from Boost Mobile and volunteer to pay their taxes?

Behshad wrote:C) There will be loopholes for many to get away with paying taxes

Seal up the loopholes tighter than Freddie Mercury's lips on a 9 inch dick. Actually, eliminate them, save for investing, as that involves risk and you don't want to dry up the financial markets.

Behshad wrote:D) Middle class will always get screwed

As well they/we should. Our assault on the higher income earners and flat-out jealousy has crippled the vast majority of this class from moving forward. Instead of working to achieve, the vast majority simply sit back and lament on how things are so "unfair" and how they're/we're trapped in this "class." When we realize and accept that the people truly getting fucked, and those that really do have it unfair are above us, we'll see more people succeed. It's simple; this country was founded on the premise that we shouldn't discriminate based on race and that justice is blind. These 2 principles should include earners, high and low, too.

Behshad wrote:cause we have the rich deciding for our economy and poor mooching off of us

When we stop attacking the "rich" and pandering to the "poor," we'll slowly see a divergence in this country that will make things far easier and healthier for everyone. It'll bring us together, as their will be equality in taxation and a shared system of fairness.

No one is attacking the rich. And when someone is rich theyre called rich, its not labeling them, thats what the word means and thats why it exists.

And youre absolutely wrong in blaming the middle class for not being able to move forward cause of their JEALOUSY
Its a simple fact, when youre middle class, you can work 40 hours a week, you can work 70 hours a week, you will not become RICH from that. You will remain middle class cause the rich are in control. Simple as that.
Now once in a great while people from middle class come up with ideas and take some risks and get further. But majority of the middle class are working hard to live paycheck to paycheck and when takin care of family andbills and trying to be responsible, taking chances and risks are out of questions!
Its is what it is and NO BODY can change it. No matter who is in office , we will still have to follow the same pattern that middle class has for decades.

Behshad wrote:No one is attacking the rich. And when someone is rich theyre called rich, its not labeling them, thats what the word means and thats why it exists.

One day this disturbing mindset of yours is going to bite you in the ass, as the "poor" deadbeats are going to deem you rich. Effective that day, your tax bracket is going to explode another 10% or so. That's the danger with not keeping taxation "blind." No one should decide who pays more or less. We should all pay the same, per dollar earned and spent.

Behshad wrote:And youre absolutely wrong in blaming the middle class for not being able to move forward cause of their JEALOUSY

I'm not "blaming the middle class" for anything. I'm simply pointing out that the danger with "class" tax structures is that it's too easy to ask for more of one group and less of another. The easiest and fairest way, and the way this country's principles demands, is to tax "blindly." That eliminates the need for the IRS or for anyone to know or fucking care about how much anyone makes. But we have politicians sitting there drawing up pie charts to take from a small group and give to a larger group, in exchange for votes. And that's the most dangerous thing this country has ever encountered. The numbers speak for themselves. We're rotting from within.

Behshad wrote:Its a simple fact, when youre middle class, you can work 40 hours a week, you can work 70 hours a week, you will not become RICH from that. You will remain middle class cause the rich are in control. Simple as that.

That's neither a "fact," nor is it "simple as that." Working even 20 extra hours per week (at another job) for, say, 20-25 years and investing that money would probably yield a few extra million dollars by the time you're 55. But we don't do that. We simply adjust our lifestyles to spend that extra money.

But I'm living in a part of the country where people do do that. There are droves of farmers around here that have worked 10-16 hour days for 30, 40 and even 50 years, mostly six, but sometimes 7, days per week. They lived modestly, didn't need the newest gadgets and cars, and they're now loaded. I'm talking guys with 10, 20, 30 million is cash in the bank. They slowly bought more land and some now have 500-2,000 acres. And guess what, like my girlfriend's father, they're still int he fields at 75 years old. Being "rich" to them isn't about dollars. It's about working hard and leaving your family off far better than you had it. Your middle class entrapment argument is complete and utter bullshit. Had I been able to stay out of bars, casinos and away from anything but moderate booze consumption over the last 20 years, I, too, would be sitting pretty right now. But I'm not, and that's okay, because it's my fault. Not that of the "rich," "poor" or anyone else. Just me.

Behshad wrote:Now once in a great while people from middle class come up with ideas and take some risks and get further. But majority of the middle class are working hard to live paycheck to paycheck and when takin care of family andbills and trying to be responsible, taking chances and risks are out of questions!

More utter bullshit. Your poisoned and controlled mindset diddn't even allow you to include "hard work" in the bolded sentence. "Working hard" is the easy part, Behshad. Saving harder is the toughest part. Telling yourself "No!" to the latest and greatest, but unnecessary new car, electronics gadget, nights out with the boys, casino trip or other impulse spending is mainly what separates the middle class that move up from those that do not.

Behshad wrote:Its is what it is and NO BODY can change it. No matter who is in office , we will still have to follow the same pattern that middle class has for decades.

Certainly no one with your mindset can change anything. But I know plenty of people, mainly my circle of friends from a childhood where we all lived in apartments, that have made it and are living large. And I'm happy for them. Some of them simply did what I didn't have the willpower to do. I'm lesser off than some, better off than others, but my path and theirs, have all been our own doing.

Working hard is easy?



If it was that easy then we wouldnt have a lot of the problems we have in this world. Get real man.

Lets see how YOUR MINDSET will change things and good luck with that buddy.
All we have here is wishful thinkings and none of our ideas will change our country, that my friend is a FACT !

Saving money doesnt make you rich Dan.
Also if you just wanna work your ass off but just have money sitting in the bank account , you might as well not make any money cause if you think about it real hard , money isn't worth having if you don't spend it.
My wife's grandparents were real hardworking farmers. They worked from when they were teenagers ( hard work ) and saved every single penny. They never traveled. They never bought fancy things. They kept saving and saving and once they were in their 70s they both died. What kind of like is that if you work that hard and never enjoy all the money you made ?!

I work hard to make sure that my family is having a comfortable house. I built all I have from zero. I did save here and there to be able to have down payments for house car etc.
But other than that I don't save so I can leave my kids tons of money. I have my future secured while making sure that my kids will always have food in table , new clothes and also will help them pay for college . Other than that it's not my responsibility once they're out of college so the only thing they'll have after I'm gone is my house and anything I may have in my accounts. But I know for sure I won't leave them with any debt.

It's not much about SAVING money that makes you a better person as being a RESPONSIBLE person. I've seen people with $8/wage having a 740+ credit score and having a much better life than a doctor making 50.000 a month with shitty credit and in debt due to major irresponsibility !

My mindset won't affect how lazy people are who look forward to welfare checks that I pay for. They won't change regardless of how much harder I work or how much money I save.

Last but not least , hanging on to your money and not spending it , not only does it bring you down to Titos level but it also doesn't help the economy. If people stop spending then the economy goes down with it. Spending wisely and responsibility is the key word. If I work my ass off 60+ hours a week , you better believe it that I buy the vehicle I want to drive

Behshad wrote:Saving money doesnt make you rich Dan.

Perhaps not, but I'm sure you'll be far closer to one's definition of "rich" than spending wildly.

Behshad wrote:Also if you just wanna work your ass off but just have money sitting in the bank account , you might as well not make any money cause if you think about it real hard , money isn't worth having if you don't spend it.

Some might agree with that and some might not. Regardless, what people do or don't do with their money isn't for you to decide. Just like how people getting taxed at different rates isn't. Let people all be taxed the same and do what they wish with their money. The high income earners could unite and flee this country, bringing it to its knees. So, rather than punish them with unfair tax rates, we should show them some fucking appreciation and make them feel like everyone else.

Behshad wrote:My wife's grandparents were real hardworking farmers. They worked from when they were teenagers ( hard work ) and saved every single penny. They never traveled. They never bought fancy things. They kept saving and saving and once they were in their 70s they both died. What kind of like is that if you work that hard and never enjoy all the money you made ?!

What kind of life is that? That's not for me to decide. You're imposing your beliefs of what to do with money onto them. Perhaps family, knowing the next generation would be far better off and financially secure was all the "rich" they needed to experience.

Behshad wrote:I work hard to make sure that my family is having a comfortable house. I built all I have from zero. I did save here and there to be able to have down payments for house car etc.
But other than that I don't save so I can leave my kids tons of money. I have my future secured while making sure that my kids will always have food in table , new clothes and also will help them pay for college . Other than that it's not my responsibility once they're out of college so the only thing they'll have after I'm gone is my house and anything I may have in my accounts. But I know for sure I won't leave them with any debt.

Sounds like your "riches" are far more than anything money can buy, and that's the important thing.

Behshad wrote:It's not much about SAVING money that makes you a better person as being a RESPONSIBLE person. I've seen people with $8/wage having a 740+ credit score and having a much better life than a doctor making 50.000 a month with shitty credit and in debt due to major irresponsibility !

Saving and responsibility really go hand in hand, so it's a moot point.

Behshad wrote:My mindset won't affect how lazy people are who look forward to welfare checks that I pay for. They won't change regardless of how much harder I work or how much money I save.

They'll change if they realize the free ride is over. And only then will they change.

Behshad wrote:Last but not least , hanging on to your money and not spending it , not only does it bring you down to Titos level but it also doesn't help the economy. If people stop spending then the economy goes down with it. Spending wisely and responsibility is the key word. If I work my ass off 60+ hours a week , you better believe it that I buy the vehicle I want to drive

The economy would be far better off at a slower clip, but with people and our country not in debt.

Ed wrote:

Obama built that city. And then Andrew banned it.