Well I went.....

Doesn't matter if Cain wrote those cheesy lyrics. Perry helped tremendously by SINGING them and that's what put them on the map.
You ask any average Joe who Steve Perry is and most will know right away , singer of Journey.
Ask who Jonathan Cain is and you're lucky if even half those people know who he is or that he wrote Journey songs.

On another side note , the more I see people like chubby post while their head is in the sand , the less I care about Arnel as the singer of Journey , even though I still believe he's a great humble person.
Pinheads hurt Arnels success worse than anyone else could.

I don't flip flop...I am a Perry fan to the end..and yes I don't believe he is the only responsbile for the bands success.....but considering the way the current line up is emulating his voice...well that says alot to me


But Giddy likes to argue and debate...and well he was not around for the Perry years sooooooooooo

Behshad wrote:Doesn't matter if Cain wrote those cheesy lyrics. Perry helped tremendously by SINGING them and that's what put them on the map.
You ask any average Joe who Steve Perry is and most will know right away , singer of Journey.
Ask who Jonathan Cain is and you're lucky if even half those people know who he is or that he wrote Journey songs.

I'm rather surprised that this is coming from you, of all people, Behshad. Aren't you a friend and fan of JSS? No one knows who the hell he is (I'd be willing to lay serious money that more people, from the average Joe to the musicians are more familiar with Cain than JSS), does that make him any less talented?

Hell, Arnel is more of a household name than anyone who has ever been in Journey minus Perry himself. Guess that means his contributions are more important... yet, curiously enough, Pineda's name isn't on a single writing credit for any Journey material.

Perry and Arnel are the frontmen. Of course they're going to get more of the limelight than the keyboardist or lead guitarist or drummer. We're not discussing attention or the spotlight; we're talking contributions with people who are presumably a bit more educated on the inner machinations of Journey than your vaunted Average Joe.

Beshad wrote:On another side note , the more I see people like chubby post while their head is in the sand , the less I care about Arnel as the singer of Journey , even though I still believe he's a great humble person.
Pinheads hurt Arnels success worse than anyone else could.

Give me one obnoxious comment Chubby's and I'll give you ten from any Loon you'd care to mention. Face it, Behshad, the jackasses are on both sides.

portland wrote:and yes I don't believe he is the only responsbile for the bands success.....but considering the way the current line up is emulating his voice...well that says alot to me

That's really all I wanted and I'm glad to hear it. Really glad. My hope for humanity has been restored.

portland wrote:But Giddy likes to argue and debate...and well he was not around for the Perry years sooooooooooo

I can promise you that arguing and debating and general discussion about anything is something far more important, productive, and worthwhile than guessing when Steve Perry when will release his new album (never), and which picture he looks sexier in.

Seems like I have an advantage.

The only difference between a Loon and a Pinhead is the fucking title and object of their obsessions. Everything else: the fanaticism, the revisionist history, the obsession, and the middle-aged demographic... is completely identical.

And as regards my age and how long I've been a fan, it really means jack. If anything, it's a boon. I'm not caught up with these guys' personal lives and it doesn't impact my opinions of them as singers and musicians. The fact that I don't yearn to possess some sperm from Steve Perry or Arnel Pineda doesn't mean I'm any less of a fan.

portland wrote:I don't flip flop...I am a Perry fan to the end..and yes I don't believe he is the only responsbile for the bands success.....but considering the way the current line up is emulating his voice...well that says alot to me


But Giddy likes to argue and debate...and well he was not around for the Perry years sooooooooooo

Port, others flip flop. Not saying you ever did. Long story.........

Ed wrote:Gid, the Journey lead singer wars have been going on forever as I'm sure you know. Go to melodicrock.com and read the older posts. You will see people flip flopping, changing their opinions and all kinds of crazy stuff.

I know.

And it's cool to compare and contrast the various singers, but some of it is absolutely stupid.

Gideon wrote:

portland wrote:and yes I don't believe he is the only responsbile for the bands success.....but considering the way the current line up is emulating his voice...well that says alot to me

That's really all I wanted and I'm glad to hear it. Really glad. My hope for humanity has been restored.

portland wrote:But Giddy likes to argue and debate...and well he was not around for the Perry years sooooooooooo

I can promise you that arguing and debating and general discussion about anything is something far more important, productive, and worthwhile than guessing when Steve Perry when will release his new album (never), and which picture he looks sexier in.

Seems like I have an advantage.

The only difference between a Loon and a Pinhead is the fucking title and object of their obsessions. Everything else: the fanaticism, the revisionist history, the obsession, and the middle-aged demographic... is completely identical.

And as regards my age and how long I've been a fan, it really means jack. If anything, it's a boon. I'm not caught up with these guys' personal lives and it doesn't impact my opinions of them as singers and musicians. The fact that I don't yearn to possess some sperm from Steve Perry or Arnel Pineda doesn't mean I'm any less of a fan.

Age means NOTHING.

Glad to see people younger than me liking music I grew up with.

Ed wrote:Age means NOTHING.

Maybe pedophiles are onto something?

Ed wrote:Glad to see people younger than me liking music I grew up with.

Amen. Us young'uns are completely fascinated by you dinosaurs and your culture.

Gideon wrote:

portland wrote:and yes I don't believe he is the only responsbile for the bands success.....but considering the way the current line up is emulating his voice...well that says alot to me

That's really all I wanted and I'm glad to hear it. Really glad. My hope for humanity has been restored.

portland wrote:But Giddy likes to argue and debate...and well he was not around for the Perry years sooooooooooo

I can promise you that arguing and debating and general discussion about anything is something far more important, productive, and worthwhile than guessing when Steve Perry when will release his new album (never), and which picture he looks sexier in.

Seems like I have an advantage.

The only difference between a Loon and a Pinhead is the fucking title and object of their obsessions. Everything else: the fanaticism, the revisionist history, the obsession, and the middle-aged demographic... is completely identical.

And as regards my age and how long I've been a fan, it really means jack. If anything, it's a boon. I'm not caught up with these guys' personal lives and it doesn't impact my opinions of them as singers and musicians. The fact that I don't yearn to possess some sperm from Steve Perry or Arnel Pineda doesn't mean I'm any less of a fan.

You never cease to go to another low spot...but I know that from you...who to hell said anything about sperm???

But hey....I know what I like to listen to and what I enjoy for me it's Perry and that is all that matters.

As far as the Pinheads and the Loons alot of the division has stemmed from the division of the members of the band and how people were treated. I hope that AP never sees the wrath of what can be handed down to any member of this band..and yes Giddy SP can/could be a asshole as he has stated himself.

All I can say is.....I came here due to the fact that you mentioned me by name here and I don't agree with you assesment of me...but you and I have never agreed since day one so I am not surprised.

and there is one difference between a Loon and a Pinhead....there are a few more chart toppers on the Loon side of things...and well that has to do with a certain someones voice!!

Love you too Giddy.....bye!!!

We weren't talking about the quality of the songs or what's better or worse. We aren't talking about JSS vs Cain either. You just like to muddy up thd water to jump into a different topic.
I bet you if you ask people in Europe , more people know who JSS is VS Cain or Schon even.

In journeys case I was simply stating the fact that to many who aren't die hard fans , Journey = Perry. That's a fact.

JSS is a different story. He has been in way too many great projects and one of the most hard working guys in thd business. He takes pride in what he does and he gives it all he's got regardless if furtune & fame.
Soto and Jacob have a boatload of great songs that are way above the best Journey hit songs.

Arnel is NOT the household name you think he is amongst the average joes.
Just the same as Augeri wasn't that recognized as the band member even though he was with the band for a long time.


I don't have the time or energy to look up chubby post to prove a point to you. I am not denting that loons can be as bad as pinheads. But loons can't really turn people away from Journey since Perry isn't with thd band anymore.
Pinheads DO affect peoples opinion , myself included.
I saw Journey with Pineda a year ago and thouht Arnel did an amazing job. But the more I saw people like chubby post their nonesene crap , the less I cared about the band. The fucking DENIAL they live in , including the Superbowl gig that even Arnel himself acknowledged and apologized for is ONE example of how blind(and deaf) some can be .


Bottom line , you're trying to play the devils advocate here. Great arguments you come up with, but I think you're not even believing in half of your own arguments. You just like to stirr the shit and get people going. You did it to Dean , you did it to Andrew, you did it to many others. While I'm not gonna fall for that , I give you kudos for your ability to get these people riled up considering the fact that most of them were listening to the old classics while you were still swimming around in your dads left nut

Behshad wrote:We weren't talking about the quality of the songs or what's better or worse. We aren't talking about JSS vs Cain either. You just like to muddy up thd water to jump into a different topic. I bet you if you ask people in Europe , more people know who JSS is VS Cain or Schon even.

So then what are we talking about?

I was discussing contributions: the fact that there were members of the band who contributed much to Journey's success. It wasn't just Perry; Cain was one of them.

Beshad wrote:In journeys case I was simply stating the fact that to many who aren't die hard fans , Journey = Perry. That's a fact.

Agreed, to the diehards. And even some of the public. But we're a little bit more educated than they are, don't you think? A little more versed in Journey lore? We know that Perry, Schon, and Cain each contributed much to Journey's success, not just one bandmate.

Beshad wrote:JSS is a different story. He has been in way too many great projects and one of the most hard working guys in thd business. He takes pride in what he does and he gives it all he's got regardless if furtune & fame.
Soto and Jacob have a boatload of great songs that are way above the best Journey hit songs.

JSS is not a different story. He's an extremely talented musician who has simply not gotten the attention that others have had. But that does not, in any way, reflect on his talent: just the poor taste of the public.

And the comment about his songs vs. Journey's songs is completely subjective.

Beshad wrote:Arnel is NOT the household name you think he is amongst the average joes.
Just the same as Augeri wasn't that recognized as the band member even though he was with the band for a long time.

Neither is Perry. I don't think any of them are real household names. Not like Hendrix, Elvis, and the Beatles. "Don't Stop Believin'" is better known than the band or any of its members. There are plenty of friends of mine to whom if I said "Journey" or "Steve Perry," the most I'd get is a blank expression. If I said "Don't Stop Believin'", then they'd be like... "ohhh..."

Beshad wrote:I don't have the time or energy to look up chubby post to prove a point to you. I am not denting that loons can be as bad as pinheads. But loons can't really turn people away from Journey since Perry isn't with thd band anymore.
Pinheads DO affect peoples opinion , myself included.
I saw Journey with Pineda a year ago and thouht Arnel did an amazing job. But the more I saw people like chubby post their nonesene crap , the less I cared about the band. The fucking DENIAL they live in , including the Superbowl gig that even Arnel himself acknowledged and apologized for is ONE example of how blind(and deaf) some can be .


Bottom line , you're trying to play the devils advocate here. Great arguments you come up with, but I think you're not even believing in half of your own arguments. You just like to stirr the shit and get people going. You did it to Dean , you did it to Andrew, you did it to many others. While I'm not gonna fall for that , I give you kudos for your ability to get these people riled up considering the fact that most of them were listening to the old classics while you were still swimming around in your dads left nut

No comment. The enigma factor will be gone if I gave away all my secrets...

portland wrote:

Frank wrote:Hey Porty! Good to see you over here...Welcome to WTF!!!

Hey Frank....I am just passing through...Giddy felt the need to use my name here so I thought I will say hi....I know how he loves me


I will return to lurking status soon!!!

Hang out for a while portland - we don't bite.

Well, except maybe for Frank

Yeah, but whether it hurts all depends on who I'm biting....

Frank wrote:Yeah, but whether it hurts all depends on who I'm biting....

portland wrote:I don't flip flop...I am a Perry fan to the end..and yes I don't believe he is the only responsbile for the bands success.....but considering the way the current line up is emulating his voice...well that says alot to me


But Giddy likes to argue and debate...and well he was not around for the Perry years sooooooooooo

Porty! Welcome to WTF!

Deb wrote:

portland wrote:I don't flip flop...I am a Perry fan to the end..and yes I don't believe he is the only responsbile for the bands success.....but considering the way the current line up is emulating his voice...well that says alot to me


But Giddy likes to argue and debate...and well he was not around for the Perry years sooooooooooo

Porty! Welcome to WTF!

Hey Deb thanks for the welcome!!!


Giddy misses me so I had to come over and say hi

cat wrote:

portland wrote:

Frank wrote:Hey Porty! Good to see you over here...Welcome to WTF!!!

Hey Frank....I am just passing through...Giddy felt the need to use my name here so I thought I will say hi....I know how he loves me


I will return to lurking status soon!!!

Hang out for a while portland - we don't bite.

Well, except maybe for Frank

Ahhhh Frank is harmless!!!! and thanks for the welcome!!!

Gideon wrote:
So what I'm looking for is evidence that the Arneliots/Pinheads are any worse than the Loons, who have had decades to hone their skill for obnoxious hero-worship and revisionist history.

Oh, honey... this one is easy. The proof is in the putting (or is it pudding...?). Journey's success with SP is all the evidence one needs to support the fact that 'worshipping' SMFP is legitimate (relatively speaking) whereas the Arneliots are worshipping someone who is making his living off the scraps thrown to him by people wanting to re-live the SP era of Journey. It's a good living, mind you, but it's not a whole lot different than what he did in the Zoo. Singing someone else's songs. The Oprah thing today is futher proof of it. Nothing revisionist about it, you just choose not to face reality, and/or love to simply argue so much that as Behshad said you're spouting off without truly believing what you are saying.

And before you say it, I don't want SP's sperm, his cock up my ass or in any other bodily oriface, or any of that other nasty stuff. I simply respect his legacy, because without it, there would be no Journey. Period.

DP wrote:Oh, honey... this one is easy. The proof is in the putting (or is it pudding...?). Journey's success with SP is all the evidence one needs to support the fact that 'worshipping' SMFP is legitimate (relatively speaking) whereas the Arneliots are worshipping someone who is making his living off the scraps thrown to him by people wanting to re-live the SP era of Journey. It's a good living, mind you, but it's not a whole lot different than what he did in the Zoo. Singing someone else's songs. The Oprah thing today is futher proof of it. Nothing revisionist about it, you just choose not to face reality, and/or love to simply argue so much that as Behshad said you're spouting off without truly believing what you are saying.

Leave it to you, Donna, to make an attempt to validate hero-worship and fanatic obsession with a man who is as flawed as any of his former bandmates.

It's not okay and it is revisionist. Here's the real story as corroborated by persons involved and hindsight: Steve Perry had a fantastic voice and was the greatest factor in raising Journey from the bowels of obscurity. Was he the only factor? Absolutely not. Jonathan Cain's arrival to the band raised the band's standards as regards the writing and formula; his premiere album with the band outsold Perry's by a ridiculous amount, if you want to play number games. And in Perry's own words, if it weren't for Herbie believing in him (and Neal and Gregg for accepting him), he would have never reached that level of success, since it's common knowledge he had all but abandoned his dreams for singing.

I'll be more than happy to hunt and find the interview (GQ?). The man himself seems to operate under the impression that there was more to Journey and more to its success than just him. As Dan said recently on MR, "it's a two way street." Perry owes the entirety of his success to Journey.

DP wrote:And before you say it, I don't want SP's sperm, his cock up my ass or in any other bodily oriface, or any of that other nasty stuff.

Your behavior suggests otherwise.

DP wrote:I simply respect his legacy,

If that's the case, then we're on the same side. The personal pitfalls of Journey's members mean nothing to me unless they have a severe impact on the band, which is why I regard the fiasco of ROR and TBF (Perry's fault) and the handling of Augeri and Soto (Neal and co.'s fault) so poorly. There's no room for hero-worship of that sort; none of these guys are saints.

DP wrote:because without it, there would be no Journey. Period.

Actually, if it weren't for Herbie Herbert, Neal Schon, and Gregg Rolie, there'd be no Journey. And by Perry's own indication, no one would have been able to hear that magical voice.

Sorry, Donna; you're just going to have to accept that Perry's presence in Journey was a mutually beneficial thing to both parties. If you don't like that, then it take it up with Perry.

End of story.

http://men.style.com/gq/blogs/gqeditors/2008/05/foolish-foolish.html

But when you had that conversation, did you get the sense that they thought you were just going out on your own?
Mmm-hmm. I think they thought I was just going to leave the group and go solo and tell everybody to go—whatever. Remember, it took two solo albums from Neal before I did my first. I was a Journey member. I was a Journeyman. I was part of a band that saved my life. You don’t seem to understand how much I wanted to sing in that band. The manager, Herbie, fought for me to be in that band, when they weren’t sure. If it wasn’t for Herbie Herbert fighting for what he believed was the right direction, which was “This guy’s gonna be the singer of the band, and I don’t wanna talk about it anymore”—he fought for me. We’ve had our problems too, but if it wasn’t for Herbie, I woulda had no chance, to sing on that grand stage. He went to bat for me in a huge way.

Read 'em and weep, Donna. He specifically cites Herbie as the man who handed him his career and part (not the entirety) of a band that "saved his life." He calls himself a member. A fraction of an institution larger than himself.

You lose.

Edit: Man, I've just gained a metric shitton of newfound respect for the man. He'd probably be disgusted with a lot of this, if that interview is any indication. He's more than willing to give credit where credit is due...

Wonder why people who have no real ties to this band have a hard time doing the exact same thing?

We could argue and debate about this until kingdom come. Here are the facts. The largest majority of Journey fans, past and present, listen to the band because of Steve Perry, Jon Cain, Neal Schon, Gregg Rolie, Ross Valory, and Steve Smith. The era from the late 70's throughout the 80's. This is fact. It can't be debated. And, probably more so the era of the 80's line up with Jon Cain. If any of the big three members were not present during this band's heyday, Steve Perry, Jon Cain, Neal Schon, the band would have been something completely different. Having the nucleus of those three guys in the band is what gave the band the magic to write and perform so many great songs for us. I believe each of those three have their own special, unique quality to their craft. Which is what made Journey such a great band in the day. So, when you take away one of those guys, it's still good, but not nearly the same.

With that said, arguing that you can replace Steve Perry, Neal Schon, or Jon Cain and have Journey remain the great band they were in the day is ridiculous. Success they might have, but to what degree? Nothing like they experienced in the 80's. That will never happen to this band again unless Steve Perry rejoined the group.

greg wrote:We could argue and debate about this until kingdom come. Here are the facts. The largest majority of Journey fans, past and present, listen to the band because of Steve Perry, Jon Cain, Neal Schon, Gregg Rolie, Ross Valory, and Steve Smith. The era from the late 70's throughout the 80's. This is fact. It can't be debated. And, probably more so the era of the 80's line up with Jon Cain. If any of the big three members were not present during this band's heyday, Steve Perry, Jon Cain, Neal Schon, the band would have been something completely different. Having the nucleus of those three guys in the band is what gave the band the magic to write and perform so many great songs for us. I believe each of those three have their own special, unique quality to their craft. Which is what made Journey such a great band in the day. So, when you take away one of those guys, it's still good, but not nearly the same.

With that said, arguing that you can replace Steve Perry, Neal Schon, or Jon Cain and have Journey remain the great band they were in the day is ridiculous. Success they might have, but to what degree? Nothing like they experienced in the 80's. That will never happen to this band again unless Steve Perry rejoined the group.

Well said. And I agree with all of it.

Gideon wrote:http://men.style.com/gq/blogs/gqeditors/2008/05/foolish-foolish.html

But when you had that conversation, did you get the sense that they thought you were just going out on your own?
Mmm-hmm. I think they thought I was just going to leave the group and go solo and tell everybody to go—whatever. Remember, it took two solo albums from Neal before I did my first. I was a Journey member. I was a Journeyman. I was part of a band that saved my life. You don’t seem to understand how much I wanted to sing in that band. The manager, Herbie, fought for me to be in that band, when they weren’t sure. If it wasn’t for Herbie Herbert fighting for what he believed was the right direction, which was “This guy’s gonna be the singer of the band, and I don’t wanna talk about it anymore”—he fought for me. We’ve had our problems too, but if it wasn’t for Herbie, I woulda had no chance, to sing on that grand stage. He went to bat for me in a huge way.

Read 'em and weep, Donna. He specifically cites Herbie as the man who handed him his career and part (not the entirety) of a band that "saved his life." He calls himself a member. A fraction of an institution larger than himself.

You lose.

Edit: Man, I've just gained a metric shitton of newfound respect for the man. He'd probably be disgusted with a lot of this, if that interview is any indication. He's more than willing to give credit where credit is due...

Wonder why people who have no real ties to this band have a hard time doing the exact same thing?

WTF are you talking about??? Damn, and I thought Phallus was the one with the poor reading comprehension. You're giving her a run for her money in this thread, my dear.

How many times have you changed direction in this thread? My comments to you were regarding your theory that Perry fans have no more right to idolize him than Arnel fans do with him. I call bullshit on that based on the fact that SP's superstar status in the Journey heyday have earned him (and therefore his fans) that right. Arnel is simply cashing in on that former status. There's really not much difference in what he's doing now and what he did in the Phillipines, except that the bandmates are different and the stage is a little bigger. He's still just performing a tribute to what was.

You were talking about the fans, not about SP and his (real or perceived) personality flaws. When presented with a legitimate response, you changed the subject matter to something totally different. I don't need to read the GQ article. I know that SP is humble about the opportunity he received, at least now if not in the mid 80s. I'm not the one trashing him at every turn. He's my hero and I worship him...

Yo, Behshad, I think you should change Giddy's screen name... Given his recent ability to bounce around like a frog on crack, I suggest his new name be "Phil". Whatdya say?

"Yo"? Nice to see you're trying to connect with the younger generation, Donna.

We were discussing hero-worship. I'm telling you that no one's accomplishments -- Steve Perry's included -- warrant that level of obsession. I cited Perry's own words to debunk your mentality and the mentality subscribed to by the loons. He was not the only contributing factor in Journey's sucess and he owes his career to Herbie Herbert (and by extension, Neal and Gregg). It was a mutually beneficial arrangement, and Perry himself gained quite a bit from it.

So it is relevant. Now I realize you don't want to accept that since that interview curbstomps the dogmata of the Loon Brigade. Perry is human, he made mistakes, and he was but a part of the entity that is Journey.

Kudos to Perry and Arnel for realizing what some of their fans refuse to.

Likewise, it's equally retarded for the Pinheads or Arneliots or whatever we're calling them to exalt Arnel as all get out. You're right, to some degree. He has a lot less going for him in the way of accomplishments than Perry, but the hero worship does not apply to either of them.

Behshad can change my name to "Phil" if he changes yours to Casper, 'cause your case is transparent.


Edit: Loons and Pinheads should listen to this. Craig's message is great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2x3AXJWxAU&feature=related

I know this is off topic, but HOLY SHIT!