Whitney Houston

Such a fine talent at one point, and one of my favorite female singers ever. Too bad she turned into a filthy junkie and died so young.

Saint John wrote:Such a fine talent at one point, and one of my favorite female singers ever. Too bad she turned into a filthy junkie and died so young.

Oh my gosh! That is sad. I think she was what? Only around 48 or 49? A couple years younger than me anyway, I think. ( okay, I'll say it before anyone else does..."Isn't everyone younger than you?" ) It's very sad that she couldn't beat her addiction IF that is the reason for her death. She did have an amazing voice. May she rest in peace.

blueskies wrote:
Oh my gosh! That is sad.

Nothing sad about it at all. She had the world at her feet, the gift of voice that few women have ever had, financial freedom and great parents. She rewarded the world by taking her riches and living like a pig.

The media has a chance to get this right, but I doubt they will. Portray her as the 20+ year slob that she was. Vilify her and do NOT treat this as an unfortunate death, but someone that chose to live a dirty lifestyle. "Addiction" is voluntary and pathetic, and no one should feel sorry for those that choose to live in such a way. Especially people with the resources at their disposal that she had.

She'll be treated as another unfortunate casualty of the Hollyweird scene, and this sort of thing will perpetuate. Until we start condemning these people in death, this will just continue to be a vicious cycle. Creeps like Winehouse, Haim, Houston and Ledger have been glorified in their own little way, and the people that feel sorry for them and view their deaths as "tragic" ensure that this cycle continues. Whitney Houston, like the others aforementioned, basically committed suicide. And there's nothing noble or sad about it. Just pathetic.

Saint John wrote:

blueskies wrote:
Oh my gosh! That is sad.

Nothing sad about it at all. She had the world at her feet, the gift of voice that few women have ever had, financial freedom and great parents. She rewarded the world by taking her riches and living like a pig.

The media has a chance to get this right, but I doubt they will. Portray her as the 20+ year slob that she was. Vilify her and do NOT treat this as an unfortunate death, but someone that chose to live a dirty lifestyle. "Addiction" is voluntary and pathetic, and no one should feel sorry for those that choose to live in such a way. Especially people with the resources at their disposal that she had.

She'll be treated as another unfortunate casualty of the Hollyweird scene, and this sort of thing will perpetuate. Until we start condemning these people in death, this will just continue to be a vicious cycle. Creeps like Winehouse, Haim, Houston and Ledger have been glorified in their own little way, and the people that feel sorry for them and view their deaths as "tragic" ensure that this cycle continues. Whitney Houston, like the others aforementioned, basically committed suicide. And there's nothing noble or sad about it. Just pathetic.

It is sad to me, but it doesn't mean that it's noble at all. It's sad that she couldn't overcome her addictions. It's sad that she fell into addiction in the first place. People who fall into addiction are looking for something to make them feel better, makes them numb and to try to escape reality for awhile. Yes, that is sad to me. Everything isn't that cut and dry and simplistic, Dan...people aren't that simplistic....they are complicated. If you don't know their whole story, every one of their life experiences and how they may have affected them and left long lasting effects and if you have not had any similar experiences or haven't been close to someone that has that you've experienced along with them from being around them..then one can't fully understand them at all.

It's very easy to sit back and judge by a distance and say what people should be and do but we are all individuals who deal with things in different ways. Unfortunately some people deal with pain in self destructive ways. There are also mental problems that people may have to deal with that are none of their own doing but which makes them become undone. As far as having " everything in the world"? Well, obviously she didn't have it all...she was missing something that no amount of money, fame or material things can buy.....which may have been love....love she felt was real and she could trust in...unconditional love..and maybe not enough love for herself. As it's been said...no amount of money and things can buy happiness...and that is proven time and time again.

I don't think anyone is glorifying addiction by saying it's sad at all. I certainly am not. I just think it's sad that something in her caused her to fall into addiction and that she couldn't break away enough to really see where she was heading and didn't get the proper help or at least not enough of it to get healthy. Having compassion for peoples failures and suffering isn't condoning their choices. You are correct, her death probably was of her own doing..and that is not something to admire, but I feel it is something to pity and try to understand the underlying cause. The cause of behavior should be discussed so better understanding can be achieved...not to glorify the dead but to help those who remain.

Yawn. If she yearned love she should have kept herself clean and loveable. But she didn't, and I just have to believe that after 20 years of drugging it up, she was doing exactly what she wanted to. And let's not call it "addiction." "Choice" is a far better, and more accurate, word.

Saint John wrote:Yawn. If she yearned love she should have kept herself clean and loveable. But she didn't, and I just have to believe that after 20 years of drugging it up, she was doing exactly what she wanted to. And let's not call it "addiction." "Choice" is a far better, and more accurate, word.

Should have, could have, would have.....she's gone now so she can't do anything about it. Yes, her taking drugs.. it was a choice and everyone is responsible for their choices....but after making that choice initially she became addicted. After becoming addicted she had less and less control over her choices, the drugs controlled her. Something should be learned from everything that happens. Hopefully something positive can be learned from this...a lesson that will save other life's and not have anyone emulate the famous who make bad choices...they are just people too ..who often fall down just as much as any other people do.

[ You have improved in debating with me to a huge extent but was the yawn really necessary? ]

Of course I didn't know her personally so I don't know what went on in her personal life ...but I don't think she should be condemned..she hurt herself more than she probably ever hurt anyone else....what I do know for sure is she was extremely talented.
I think her rendition of the Star Spangled Banner was the best I've ever heard.


and her performance of this song is just incredible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9nPf7w7pDI

RIP

Heard she may have drowned in her bathtub.

blueskies wrote:she hurt herself more than she probably ever hurt anyone else

Her daughter, family and friends might disagree. Listen, if you're single, not a parent, a recluse and you want to live like a junkie, then by all means go right ahead. But especially when you have a child, you have an obligation to take care of yourself. It's pass or fail, really. And she failed miserably. The tears, hurt, emptiness, longing and sadness that her daughter, family and friends will feel from her death, going forward, easily eclipses any problems that she ever had. I'm certain of it.

Saint John wrote:

blueskies wrote:she hurt herself more than she probably ever hurt anyone else

Her daughter, family and friends might disagree. Listen, if you're single, not a parent, a recluse and you want to live like a junkie, then by all means go right ahead. But especially when you have a child, you have an obligation to take care of yourself. It's pass or fail, really. And she failed miserably. The tears, hurt, emptiness, longing and sadness that her daughter, family and friends will feel from her death, going forward, easily eclipses any problems that she ever had. I'm certain of it.

I didn't say she hasn't caused any hurt to anyone else. She did to those who loved her by her self destruction. I said she hurt herself more by slowly destroying herself until death. Dan, since you say you are certain may I ask... do you have personal experience living with someone close to you who had a deathwish either due to illness or drug abuse?

blueskies wrote:Dan, since you say you are certain may I ask... do you have personal experience living with someone close to you who had a deathwish either due to illness or drug abuse?

Yes. He's my half-brother, and I told him and the rest of the family that if he died from booze and drugs that it wouldn't affect me in the least, and that I wouldn't really care. Nor would I attend his funeral. He's doing better now, though, but I'm not sure he'll ever be completely in control. He's bought into all of this "addiction," "disease" and "recovery" bullshit (so this isn't really his fault), and it's nothing more than an anchor around his waist. I've tried to tell him that thinking he has a disease is pretty fucking pathetic. But there's no convincing a dude that has his affairs in such fantastic order.

Saint John wrote:

blueskies wrote:Dan, since you say you are certain may I ask... do you have personal experience living with someone close to you who had a deathwish either due to illness or drug abuse?

Yes. He's my half-brother, and I told him and the rest of the family that if he died from booze and drugs that it wouldn't affect me in the least, and that I wouldn't really care. Nor would I attend his funeral. He's doing better now, though, but I'm not sure he'll ever be completely in control. He's bought into all of this "addiction," "disease" and "recovery" bullshit (so this isn't really his fault), and it's nothing more than an anchor around his waist. I've tried to tell him that thinking he has a disease is pretty fucking pathetic. But there's no convincing a dude that has his affairs in such fantastic order.

I'm sorry for your brother and the pain he has been in and the pain he has caused you and the rest of his family. You say his substance abuse hasn't affected you but it has by your anger at him and others who are self destructive. It has contributed to your forming your opinions and your intolerance of people set on a path of self destruction. I understand the anger. You did just say you didn't think he would ever be completely in control so you do recognize that once addicted that the drugs and booze took control. You are getting hungup on the word "disease". No, it is not a disease in the traditional sense that everyone thinks of like heart disease.. ..something that comes on gradually overtime time and worsens? Well, his drug and alcohol abuse didn't just start over night. It started slowly and increased over time. A disease is something that gradually increases..it grows...and it has the potential to spread affecting those around him. Yes, he brought it on himself but it can be argued that people bring much of heart disease unto themselve's also.

There are many ways that people harm themselves....many do by eating the wrong foods, for example....even when they know that eating fast food burgers, bags of Doritoes and drinking a 6 pack of soda every day may put them in an early grave. Just some examples but there are many behaviors that people do that cause themselves harm and they still do even though they know they are harming themselves. I've heard some people argue and defend their food addictions like any drug junkie would. People also make a distinction between street drugs and perscription drugs.....drugs are drugs and peoples addiction to perscription drugs in the US is currently at an all time high. It is a huge problem no one's really talking about.

But anyway..my point is people do all kinds of destructive behavior. Are they disease? Not in the traditional sense of the word....but when looking at the words definition substance addiction can be described the same...since the addiction grows in the person like a cancer. Using the term doesn't excuse the fact the person brought it onto themselves....its after the addiction has set in and established itself....once the person has lost control and the substances are controlling them. The word is a way to get the person to recognize that they have lost control, that they now have a kind of cancer that will continue to run rampant and consume them entirely if they don't get medical help. Also the word recovery can be like in remission in someone with cancer. Addicts and alcoholics always have to consider themselves in recovery...in remission....because the draw to fall back into the substance will always be there ...they have to be aware of that so they can fight the draw. The body gets used to the chemicals and the draw is powerful for these people ...even when the mind rationalizes and knows what harm they can do. It becomes a mental battle the addict has to wage to fight that draw.

I've never lost even a minute's sleep over anyone with drug and/or booze problems. Anger? Not really. I just tell it like it is. The people that get "angry" are the ones that foolishly buy into the "clinical" side of these things and feel betrayed when they find out that the vast majority of the time all of their goodwill and effort was pissed on.

You're either fucking crazy or you're not. If you are, then there is a clinical sense to these things. But I would guess that the term "clinical" is doled out at least 999 times for every 1,000 cases, when, in fact, the numbers should be the other way around. We've just resigned ourselves that weak people have something wrong with them. And they do ... their choices.

Saint John wrote:I've never lost even a minute's sleep over anyone with drug and/or booze problems. Anger? Not really. I just tell it like it is. The people that get "angry" are the ones that foolishly buy into the "clinical" side of these things and feel betrayed when they find out that the vast majority of the time all of their goodwill and effort was pissed on.

You're either fucking crazy or you're not. If you are, then there is a clinical sense to these things. But I would guess that the term "clinical" is doled out at least 999 times for every 1,000 cases, when, in fact, the numbers should be the other way around. We've just resigned ourselves that weak people have something wrong with them. And they do ... their choices.

It is difficult to have a real discussion on this topic in type because verbal conversations flow..so we have barely broken the surface on this issue and each post is not all encompassing of what I think in total just as I'm sure your's are not. I say this because I do see what you are saying and I don't entirely disagree with you....I just hadn't addressed that part of the issue yet. lol I do think people are coddled a bit too much sometimes to the point that the attempt to be a help can do more harm than good. I think that this problem has to be looked at first though, like a Doctor would. The root cause of a problem has to be found before it can be treated, for example.....and the use of clinical terms are just a way to try to communicate so the person will understand exactly what their problem is. So, I think the clinical terms are helpful for different reasons with each meaning...but I do agree that they can also be seen as a way to excuse personal responsibilty also....and some people will do that....but not all. There is the danger that certain harmful behaviors become so commonplace that they become socially acceptable.

I do see people who whine and moan about everything.....heck, some folks, if they get a splinter you would think the world came to an end the way they carry on. Since the recession started some people have went the poor me poor me route and have done nothing except complain. Many people do have a tendancy to feel sorry for themself over every little thing entirely too much. If we were in a full Depression like back in the day it would be catastrophic because too many people don't know how to be self sufficient at all. Heck, there are many now who don't even know how to boil water. So, I agree with you that people could toughen up some more, both mentally and physically.....but ...people are fallible....far from perfect so they do screw up and fall down often. Just kicking them when they do screw up and are down I don't agree with though. There has to be some compassion, attempt to understand the root cause of failures and assistance sometimes in helping them stand back up when they can't always get back up on their own.

You seem to think that everyone should just automatically be strong...and those who have been beaten badly in life should just automatically get back on their feet and not give it a second thought.. well, it just not all that cut and dry and simplistic. People are different and their life experiences may be different from yours....and yes, some are weak...but just telling them to buck up and deal with it isn't solving a thing....it just shows complete intolerance of any weakness...any mistakes at all and that is just not the way to deal with the problem either...in fact it's not dealing with it, it's just intolerance of it....and no one is perfect...everyone is a work in progress, including you and me.

So I think in all things ..a balance must be found. As in this issue it takes some work to get there, like in figuring out the root cause of the problem to start with...if the root cause isn't found then any attempts to work on the problem will not work. The right treatment has to be applied to each problem and what will work for one thing will not usually work on another....so just telling people to get over it and buck up isn't going to work as a treatment when there is something structurally wrong. Can a building continue to stand over time when the foundation develops fractures and becomes structurally unsound and continues to deteriorate? Do we just bulldoze it or do we try to repair it? The difference between buildings and humans is....we don't just bulldoze each other and we are living breathing beings with a heart....and within that heart is compassion for others.

To be strong people... they have to be built strong and not all started out on a strong foundation.....you may have...your parents, the traits you inherited along with the way they built you since you were born may have been a strong base and it was built upon over time by them, other people you've known and your life experiences and you've continued to build yourself from there..but everyone else isn't you..they didn't start on the exact same foundation that you did...not even your brother did. Even within the same families each is an individual and have their own perceptions of experiences...even a shared experience... you may have viewed it one way and your brother may have viewed it entirely differently.

Forgot to add that even people who started on a strong foundation can be damaged along the line somewhere and develop a fissure that needs repaired. Some who once stood strong somewhere along the way lost their balance and toppled over and busted to pieces. No one is immune to failures. It is how we stand back up and recover from them. You think people should always just get back up on their own. I think that sometimes they need a hand to climb back out of a hole thats too deep that they can't get back out on their own. I think people often need some guideposts to find their way or they stand lost in one spot. I think that a strong building takes many hands to build it..and it takes time. We invest time and assistance because we are all connected. What affects one affects all. What infects one, infects all. If everyone just turned their backs and said youre on your own...then eventually there will be no one there for the back turners either when they need a hand to help them climb any mountains they encounter. If they do happen to make the climb entirely on their own...they still may be standing at the summit alone. Like it or not, Dan..we are all dependant on each other for one reason or another.

Just be frank ... basically, everyone has an excuse, in your opinion.

Saint John wrote:Just be frank ... basically, everyone has an excuse, in your opinion.

Where did I say that???
There are excuses made that are just denials to culpability and then there are some things that happen that people don't have any control over and they are not at fault. In other words....
Some are full of bull when they say their dog ate their homework and sometimes the dog really did eat the homework!

Dan, I was talking about finding root causes to problems because thats the only way to eventually eradicate their effects. I was not making excuses for anyone's harmful behavior though, at all. Trying to get to the why's something happened doesn't mean condoning what was done. People do make excuses for their behavior all the time. They do blame everything or everyone else often and don't cop to what they do at all. Someone on MR once said to me that I brought the worst out of people. I had to laugh because thats the most ridiculous thing that was ever said to me on there and the person saying it was just trying to excuse their own bad behavior...making excuses to attack which was utter nonsense. (But, if pointing out bad behavior and disagreeing with it helps to bring out the worst, then thats not a bad thing..IF the person then recognizes they are acting badly and don't make excuses for doing so, take responsibilty for doing so and start thinking about what any disagreements or criticism of them, made them respond the way they did. )

By disagreeing with somes actions and stating my opinion about it some folks started acting like beligerent rebelious teenagers instead of adults and got overly defensive. There was only denial and defense and continuation by attack..never honesty and responsibility...no one ever admitted a thing...not one admitted when they made up tales made from their own projecting of why someone would do what they did...and took their projections and spread them as facts when they were not factual at all, only projections, what they thought someone was doing and not what the person actually did or didn't do. What some peoples perceptions are and what really happened are often two very different things and people should not just run on with their perceptions only and nothing factual. Getting back to the previous example... I have no power over what anyone says or does so they have to take responsibility for their own actions but not one did. They made excuses and then blamed me. I am only responsible for my own actions. So, I completely understand what you are saying and I agree. People need to address their issues, work to correct them and own their words and deeds regardless of whatever has happened to them in the past. No one will get stronger if they keep living in the past and dwelling on things that happened to them....all I am saying is that history can't be completely ignored. We have to know where weve been to get to where we are going.

Once again..compassion and understanding does not mean condoning....and as I just said above ..some things happen to people that were not of their doing but were done to them also....and showing compassion is very much called for...and in those cases the person should not blame themselves for what happened....but from there they also have to get past what happened to them too to get stronger. Having been abused is never an excuse to abuse. Some people just get stuck in place and some fall back...some are blind to what they do to themself or other people...thats why the root problems have to be dug out and reexamined sometimes so the clouds will clear for them and they can better understand themselves and why they do the things they do. Some are just too far gone into some deep dark place to ever bring back at all...but those cases are a whole other story. Unfortunately, everyone cannot be rehabilitated.

Unfortunately most people that aren't having these kind of issues that are very appearent.. like substance abuse....in fact most people regardless of how they are conducting their lives....even those not getting into trouble or abusing themselves visably and are living "ordinary" so-called "normal" lives, are far from perfect too and will lie on others, gossip about others and try to boost themselves up on someone elses back and then turn right around and make excuses for their behavior on a daily basis. Too many people are walking blind in a variety of ways. They aren't even honest with themselves about their actions and look for an excuse to rationalize their behavior. Now how do we stamp out the lying and gossiping and the glee people seem to have in seeing others fall down or are being beaten? The human race has a long, long way to go to health, thats for sure. A good start is when everyone starts being honest with themselves, take time alone on a regular basis and do some introspection.....and yes, I agree...start being honest with everyone else too and stop making excuses for their bad behavior and own their actions. There are many good for the most part people....once many stop their bull and own their behavior, think before they act, get out of denial and blame, there will be many great people.

Running away, lying, hiding and denying doesn't change a thing...and just makes things worse. People sometimes build up walls to protect themselves and to hide behind not realizing that their walls are only an illusion and the observant see right through them. People are afraid of the truth...truth about themselves..and they are afraid to really look at themselves in the mirror....which is a shame because regardless of what their outter shell looks like,,,they can't be beautiful until they see what may be ugly along with what is beautiful within them ...and they can't be truly beautiful until the ugliness that may be within is eradicated. There are some people that on first surface glance may not be considered by most to be what many consider a definition of beauty..but once looked closer at past the surface...are radiating with beauty within...and there are others at first glance appear to be beautiful but radiate ugliness inside. We age on the surface and surface beauty fades...which is only superficial anyway and doesn't show what someone really looks like inside... so the goal is to grow more beautiful within.

Why in the name of words does an empty page with the word free
at the top come up when I click on page two of this thread?

I can stand on either side of the argument here, there's truth in everything being said.
I'll lay here what I had to say in my blog yesterday because it's how
I feel......
Last night right before I went to sleep I saw a ticker
run across the bottom of our T.V screen stating that
a very well known songstress was dead at the age of 48.
I was a fan of her music in my teen years and I was indeed
sad to read that she had passed.
My mind was taken back to a time when I thought she
had the world at her feet.
It seemed she had everything and was loved by so many.
What do any of us know about the joys and jabs in any
persons journey?
Nothing, we can only imagine what it's like to ride on their road.
Though I do my fair share of spitting sours and whining for
wants, I can honestly say that I am happy and grateful to be where
I'm at in this day.
I've been given the gift of another day with those I love and
that is really what I enjoy more than anything.

Well said, Gerene!

( I remember your name but not sure if I spelled it right. My apologies if I didn't )

Black,single mother dies of drug overdose.What's all the fuss about?

Nice trolling try, Ed, but I don't think anyone is going to bite your bait.

Her next film is entitled "The Bodybag"

What do Whitney Houston and Rick James have in common?

Everything.